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Post by Druzik on Jan 30, 2009 7:32:07 GMT 10
Yes its really annoyig the Union pushing in countris.
But its great to finally see the Kiwis getting promoted, well I suppose it helps that they won a world cup, but I hope that this will be the launch for bigger and better things... and inspire other teams like the PIs to ain for the big time.
I hope the Kiwis win the award... that would be so sweet. Are the ABs nominated also?
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Post by Druzik on Jan 30, 2009 8:22:30 GMT 10
I know but is the reason SoO is so big becasue Australia are so much better at producing players than other countrys? Well australia are very good at poaching and influencing players... NZ is the same. So they dangle the SoO carrott in front of players to make them stay. Is it because the outcome of the games is much less predictable than an Aus GB game? yes... but personally I think its that the quality of the matches is not that great... yes I know what you all are saying... but one or two gun players does not make a fantastic team. Really when you look at SoO its not a great game of RL... its a physical contest and thats what the media has sold the aus public... the beating up your mate concept. Is it because the Aussie fans think the Origin players are of a higher standard than the overseas Test teams? The media make us think that... persinally I dont think so... players are of the same standard... the TEAM is of higher standard. Yes we have had this debate when I was in Barrow I think in the pub watching the CC televised game... the newer members may not know the attitudes we have. Actually over on rleague forum... I have had this debate with another di hard QLDer... and in the end he seemed to agree. Look its the whole rivlry that sells it, its bargging rights, its why its big. Being English I pretty much feel that Australia hate us when the whistle goes for any match, any code, any sport! To a point yes.... but other sports dont suffer from the multiple split personalities RL does... I think the England GB rivalry has lost its lustre a bit for Aus... its NZ now. And I know wih my old man around there will still be plenty of hate for the French around in the UK! ;D I know, GB had some amazing players, welsh ones too, which made a strong welsh team. The Kiwis were coming about. The French even beat GB in the mid 90's and PNG beat GB in th 90's. I would call anyone a loony suggesting those two things would have happened at the recent WC!! Ya so... back then you did have much stronger teams across the board... the super leage war knocked the stuffing out of everything good that 1992 and 1995 did. Thst combined with the 2000 debacle which really set back financially the international scene... yes i agree no way those results would have happened now. I though you called me overly optimistic!  Not to mention the 10's of International teams springing up every year at the time I think there are several factors in this... someone actually got off their arse and got the IRL scene organised in some way... people getting sick of Union... in europe as you know the puke factor of Union is sky rocketing, even Union fans are sick of Steven jones et. al with the trip they dish out daily. Plus people are genuinley interested in playing league more so than ever. It doesnt have to be that way IMO, we mostly accept its not a bona-fide test trial, with PI and Kiwi stars in the team, provided they qualify through the current rules should be able to play, if they want. It could increase the games profile even further, because in many ways It would be an "All-Star" game. I do not disagree here... the idea of an all star team has been touted in the past... particularly in europe... but the club issue will become contentious... we dont have the centralised payments of Union... then again I dont think id want to. I know myself I would sell my Nanna, her dog and her House to see a SoO game if one were to be held in the UK. Typical of ja brits... you did it in every country you conquored I think a Soo needs to be resurected in the UK. |
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Post by segnz on Jan 30, 2009 11:36:43 GMT 10
Yes its really annoyig the Union pushing in countries. But its great to finally see the Kiwis getting promoted, well I suppose it helps that they won a world cup, but I hope that this will be the launch for bigger and better things... and inspire other teams like the PIs to aim for the big time. I hope the Kiwis win the award... that would be so sweet. Are the ABs nominated also? Yes for their " Grand Slam " * insert wanking emoticon here * ... The favourites are the Ever~Swindell Twins for Rowing Gold though ... |
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Post by Druzik on Jan 30, 2009 18:05:00 GMT 10
Really... the GS is so overarted these days... teams play that tour so much its completely lost it lustre.
If NH teams are not going to be willing to put out full teams for tours then aFAIK they shoudl dich them... IRU has become a bit of a joke these days I think.
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Post by Marv on Jan 30, 2009 18:15:29 GMT 10
Well australia are very good at poaching and influencing players... NZ is the same. So they dangle the SoO carrott in front of players to make them stay. Whilst i agree in principle with what your saying, when most of the Kiwi and Island lads come over to Aus they are generally in secondry school, its usually too early to see if a player is gonna be origin standard, Australia makes these players Origin standard at the end of the day. Its only fair they can lay some kind of claim to the hard work grass roots coaches put into the game over there, I just dont see why they cant play Origin and why that cant benefit IRL over the long term. yes... but personally I think its that the quality of the matches is not that great... yes I know what you all are saying... but one or two gun players does not make a fantastic team. Really when you look at SoO its not a great game of RL... its a physical contest and thats what the media has sold the aus public... the beating up your mate concept. Well, myself I love tense games, games with few tries, hard defence e.t.c and origin has everything I want from a game of RL. For example the Leeds 8-10 Saints elimination semi game from 2007 in SL was as good a game as i saw all year, only 2 tries. So to me Origin is every thing I want and more. The media make us think that... persinally I dont think so... players are of the same standard... the TEAM is of higher standard. Yes we have had this debate when I was in Barrow I think in the pub watching the CC televised game... the newer members may not know the attitudes we have. Actually over on rleague forum... I have had this debate with another di hard QLDer... and in the end he seemed to agree.. Look its the whole rivlry that sells it, its bargging rights, its why its big.[/quote] Yeah I would agree with that, but do you not think that if GB and NZ were capable of beating Australia, not just once in a lucky game like the WC final or Sydney 2006, but when the result was seriously in doubt on a regular basis, I think the superiority of Australia in tests is whats sold origin? To a point yes.... but other sports dont suffer from the multiple split personalities RL does... I think the England GB rivalry has lost its lustre a bit for Aus... its NZ now. I disagree, but as a pom maybe its because I look forward to our boys facing the worlds best and hopefully beating them, maybe like I say the lustre has gone from GB/Aus because the result is not in doubt often enough Ya so... back then you did have much stronger teams across the board... the super leage war knocked the stuffing out of everything good that 1992 and 1995 did. Thst combined with the 2000 debacle which really set back financially the international scene... yes i agree no way those results would have happened now.. everything you say is true, but lets not dwell on the past, we have a strong International game now, which hopefully in years to come will be stronger than its ever been. I though you called me overly optimistic! Loony/ overly optimistic, its all the same  I think there are several factors in this... someone actually got off their arse and got the IRL scene organised in some way... people getting sick of Union... in europe as you know the puke factor of Union is sky rocketing, even Union fans are sick of Steven jones et. al with the trip they dish out daily. Plus people are genuinley interested in playing league more so than ever. Yeah i really feel like its starting to change, with genuine londoners in Quins team and hopefull in 5 years we will see 5 or 6 genuine welsh lads step up like Ben Flower at Celtic, it can change the general opinion of our game around the rest of the UK. As for Aus RU has been dieing for years, the NRL desperstley needs to sort its act out regarding PR for me and it could kill domestic RU with one fell swoop Typical of ja brits... you did it in every country you conquored I think a Soo needs to be resurected in the UK. I see what your sayin but I think Lancs V Yorks would be a step backwards, what about Cumbrian and london players, Welsh players, French players, the game is moving away from its northern steroetypes, Lancs Yorks would not help do that IMO I was getting at an Aussie Origin game being held in the UK, I think you could sell Old Trafforsd out in a day, it would hold so much of a novelty value, even in France |
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Post by Marv on Jan 30, 2009 18:18:05 GMT 10
Really... the GS is so overarted these days... teams play that tour so much its completely lost it lustre. If NH teams are not going to be willing to put out full teams for tours then aFAIK they shoudl dich them... IRU has become a bit of a joke these days I think. Dont say that the European Tours fill the coffers at the end of a year |
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Post by Druzik on Jan 30, 2009 18:56:37 GMT 10
Whilst i agree in principle with what your saying, when most of the Kiwi and Island lads come over to Aus they are generally in secondry school, its usually too early to see if a player is gonna be origin standard, Australia makes these players Origin standard at the end of the day. Its only fair they can lay some kind of claim to the hard work grass roots coaches put into the game over there, I just dont see why they cant play Origin and why that cant benefit IRL over the long term. Ahhh now we come down to it... so what is Origin standard... I feel its a mythical thing perpetuates by aussies... its a psychological tact used to instill fear in to you poms and kiwis... I'll explain. Origin has become this juggernaut, this things that the media and press have bulit up to be a spectacle... and it is... but only because many of the players ARE useless t!ts. Look at the amount of mistakes, dropped balls and knock ons you get in Origin... something you dont see often in Club games actually. I reckon there are as many good UK based players that could make "origin grade". Yes the hits are there and are spectacular, and some of the breaks genuine game breakers like slater and Lokyer make... but look at slaters numpty pass... it was great nitty gritty, un fancies defence that forced that. Slater has great breaks, but I think he does lack alot of maturity sometimes in his play... ... but thats noy it... Origin is used to try and scare you lot... when you hear kangaroos talked about... they always talk about how many origin caps they have, to make you lot think oooohhhh ahhhh origin he msut be better than us... RRRRAAAABBBBIIIISH! The WC final is an example... and this is where Bennett was so good. He showed the kiwis that origin is not what its cracked up to be. Dont play the aussies at their game, dont get fancy, cut the mistakes out, get your head doen and keep going forward... and you can beat... wallop... the Roos.... in short come WC final time, NZ did not buy into all the shit. The hits were there, bigger than origin some of them... but again the media wont push that as its not origin and its not giving them the bragging advantage over the rest fo the world. As al murray said once "Its a great idea thats got a bit out of hand." Well, myself I love tense games, games with few tries, hard defence e.t.c and origin has everything I want from a game of RL. For example the Leeds 8-10 Saints elimination semi game from 2007 in SL was as good a game as i saw all year, only 2 tries. So to me Origin is every thing I want and more. OK fine that is great... but it doesn not mean that its quality is any better than other games... that is my point. Yeah I would agree with that, but do you not think that if GB and NZ were capable of beating Australia, not just once in a lucky game like the WC final or Sydney 2006, but when the result was seriously in doubt on a regular basis, I think the superiority of Australia in tests is whats sold origin? Yes of course... but again I think its becausse GB and NZ have sold themselves on the origin concepts and got scared. The 80's were still very competitive years for you lot.... but slowly you all got scared and by the late 90's we gopt waht we have now.... NZ since 2005 have been in a golden era AFAIC and the NZ test have got back their sparkle... France and Engalnd need to step upto the plate at least now. I disagree, but as a pom maybe its because I look forward to our boys facing the worlds best and hopefully beating them, maybe like I say the lustre has gone from GB/Aus because the result is not in doubt often enough Oh I dont doubt for you lot it hasnt lost its specatcle... but for aussies it has a bit... but now I think we are seeing a changing of the guard in Aus and IRL... like in cricket... I think teams will be more competitive now agaist us. everything you say is true, but lets not dwell on the past, we have a strong International game now, which hopefully in years to come will be stronger than its ever been. Lest we not forget... otherwise we will repeat the attrocities of the past! Loony/ overly optimistic, its all the same  Yeah i really feel like its starting to change, with genuine londoners in Quins team and hopefull in 5 years we will see 5 or 6 genuine welsh lads step up like Ben Flower at Celtic, it can change the general opinion of our game around the rest of the UK. Yes some great things are happening in the UK now... the aussies are not keeping track and I think within 5 years... even the next WC... england will be on top once more. As for Aus RU has been dieing for years, the NRL desperstley needs to sort its act out regarding PR for me and it could kill domestic RU with one fell swoop we had our chance in the 20's and 30's... why oh why were we so stubborn to be professional! I see what your sayin but I think Lancs V Yorks would be a step backwards, what about Cumbrian and london players, Welsh players, French players, the game is moving away from its northern steroetypes, Lancs Yorks would not help do that IMO I was getting at an Aussie Origin game being held in the UK, I think you could sell Old Trafforsd out in a day, it would hold so much of a novelty value, even in France Well you already do have that with the BARLA, look I dont ree why it could not have expanded to include a Cumbria team and south england team., three rounds, with a top of ladder team being winners. The war of the roses could have been played up and used as a cash cow much like origin is. No doubts a aus SoO would sell out... but can you see clubs allowing that? |
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Post by Druzik on Jan 30, 2009 18:59:26 GMT 10
Really... the GS is so overarted these days... teams play that tour so much its completely lost it lustre. If NH teams are not going to be willing to put out full teams for tours then aFAIK they shoudl dich them... IRU has become a bit of a joke these days I think. Dont say that the European Tours fill the coffers at the end of a year We know they do, its pretty much the only reason they have them and the sport survives... IRL props it up. Things like the Barbarian games and extra test are only there to cover losses from everywhere else. GB clubs now are trying to get 6 extra rounds because they are all going broke! |
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Post by Marv on Jan 30, 2009 19:26:46 GMT 10
Ahhh now we come down to it... so what is Origin standard... I feel its a mythical thing perpetuates by aussies... its a psychological tact used to instill fear in to you poms and kiwis... I'll explain. Origin has become this juggernaut, this things that the media and press have bulit up to be a spectacle... and it is... but only because many of the players ARE useless t!ts. Look at the amount of mistakes, dropped balls and knock ons you get in Origin... something you dont see often in Club games actually. I completley disagree, the nerves in an origin game could make the best of players drop a ball, you have said yourself you feel its over hyped, that probably gets into the players head too. I honestly belive that QLD and NSW could beat GB or NZ 99 times out of 100 If Origin palyers are poor why do the same players beat Eng and Nz on a regualr basis? I reckon there are as many good UK based players that could make "origin grade". . Nah, there isnt one that I can think of, most of our players fail in the NRL, never mid asking them to step up to Origin ... but thats noy it... Origin is used to try and scare you lot... when you hear kangaroos talked about... they always talk about how many origin caps they have, to make you lot think oooohhhh ahhhh origin he msut be better than us... RRRRAAAABBBBIIIISH! Not nessaceraly, at the end of the day us fans dont take the feild, all the players have an ultimatley proffesional mindset, the players dont think like us fans, they genuinely belive they can win, but they dont. Origin players come to the UK and dont always set the Sl on fire, but the Kangaroos alwas beat GB, why? Because Origin hardens them, forges combos for teams in high intensity games, nothing to do with media, more exposure to better standard of Rugby league. Slater and Lockyer, you mentioned, play well together because they have a 3 game series against possibly tougher opposition than the tests they will play. The WC final is an example... and this is where Bennett was so good. He showed the kiwis that origin is not what its cracked up to be. Dont play the aussies at their game, dont get fancy, cut the mistakes out, get your head doen and keep going forward... and you can beat... wallop... the Roos.... in short come WC final time, NZ did not buy into all the shit. The hits were there, bigger than origin some of them... but again the media wont push that as its not origin and its not giving them the bragging advantage over the rest fo the world. Wc final proves nothing exept Aus can be beaten, over the World cup Australia were so much better than the rest it wasnt funny. WC final proves the same as 3N'05 that the Kiwis can turn Aus over when Aus have an off day, but Aus have only lost 3 games in 3 years, they are still the best team in the world with the best players OK fine that is great... but it doesn not mean that its quality is any better than other games... that is my point. well it does, any game with Leeds and Saints is bigger, better and higher intensity than 90% of any other SL game, same with origin they are higher intensity than any NRL game and most tests. Yes of course... but again I think its becausse GB and NZ have sold themselves on the origin concepts and got scared. The 80's were still very competitive years for you lot.... but slowly you all got scared and by the late 90's we gopt waht we have now.... NZ since 2005 have been in a golden era AFAIC and the NZ test have got back their sparkle... France and Engalnd need to step upto the plate at least now. Its got nothing to do with Origin, its do do with the declining popualarity of the game in the UK after the advent of professionalism in RU, in the 80s and 90s we had many RU players, many of the top players from the 80s and 90s came from union Offiah, Lydon, Davies Oh I dont doubt for you lot it hasnt lost its specatcle... but for aussies it has a bit... but now I think we are seeing a changing of the guard in Aus and IRL... like in cricket... I think teams will be more competitive now agaist us.. I doubt it, not as long as we have Keith Senior and Martin Gleeson and you have Isreal Folou and Greg Inglis. FFS Matty Gidley and Matty King are better than any English Centre and if you suggested picking them for Aus you would get laughed out of Sydney Yes some great things are happening in the UK now... the aussies are not keeping track and I think within 5 years... even the next WC... england will be on top once more. I doubt it myself. Well you already do have that with the BARLA, look I dont ree why it could not have expanded to include a Cumbria team and south england team., three rounds, with a top of ladder team being winners. The war of the roses could have been played up and used as a cash cow much like origin is. Its different the Amateur game in Cumbria is much stronger so they have a competive team to pick, in the pro game you only have 3 clubs and many of them have Yorks/Lancs/overseas players. as for the south I think you would struggle to get a team together without some seriously tenious links. alltjough i do agree we could d more with the Roses concept at the time, but I think it should go to bed myself and we concentrate on a competetive Euro 3 Nations Wales, Eng, France No doubts a aus SoO would sell out... but can you see clubs allowing that? No, but it goes down to the problem that Aus doesnt need IRL but IRL needs Aus RL could go on just fine in Insular Aus and die in the rest of the world, it wouldnt make a difference to the money men in Aus RL |
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Post by segnz on Jan 30, 2009 19:40:04 GMT 10
I'm afraid I have to agree with Marv here about the strength of SoO sides ... IMHO the SoO is a big part of why Australia are still and have been so dominant in the International game and a big part of why I believe they should reinstate The War of the Roses in England and a North Island vs. South Island competition needs to be started in New Zealand ...
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Post by Druzik on Jan 30, 2009 19:48:18 GMT 10
 OK have to go an mull over this oen some I think.
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Post by segnz on Jan 30, 2009 20:13:12 GMT 10
Oops Did I stop Your flow ?!? |
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Post by Druzik on Jan 30, 2009 20:36:15 GMT 10
Oops Did I stop Your flow ?!? No... arguments were put forward that I need to think about... its the way it works with me... If there are valid ones I will change opinion accordingly... if I feel there is a strong counter then I will also reply accordingly.  Its all part of the debate here. |
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Post by segnz on Jan 30, 2009 20:50:55 GMT 10
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Post by Druzik on Jan 30, 2009 21:08:24 GMT 10
No, its just a general debate... Marv and I are old hands at this... dont worry. There is really no right or wrong I guess... just different ways of viewing things. Its all so blurred these days. Cheer up! |
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