REVISED Co-Operative Championship

Oct 8, 2009 15:00:34 GMT 10 Kiwi fan said:

It is definately impressive, getting promoted and doing so well. Of those teams I can really only see Widnes getting up into the Super League. Hopefully, Toulouse does well next year and gets themselves in contention.

If Toulouse weren't allowed the right to bid it would be disasterous IMO.

I will be interested to see if the RFL actually keep to their word about Toulouse having to win something to gain the right to bid. I think it's plainly obvious that they want them in SL in 2012 and I hope they can imoprove and do it legitimatly. I think Wakey or Cas are as good as gone and it may expand to 15 teams. That would allowed Widnes and Toulouse to gain entry.

I have one problem regarding Toulouse, it is that they only have one oppurtunity to gain bidding rights whilst others have 2. I don;t think they really had a choice but to join the Championship but they aren't allowed to compete in the Northern Rail cup which allows a bid oppurtunity. Also by doing this they were no longer allowed to participate in the Lord Derby which is ridiculous IMO. I think the RFL may have had plans to grant the winner of the Lord Derby the same rights as the Northern Rail cup but the Elite teams went up in arms about Toulouse being in it. Does anyone else think that Toulouse are seriopusly disadvantaged in this situation or is it just me?

I don't think on field performance in Championship really mean squat either, well sure if a teams getting flogged 50-0 every game then exceptions can be made but whoever gets promoted is going to keep their best players from their Championship and stock up on seasoned professionals. Look at the Crusaders, they went very well in NL1 then bought a truck load of Aussies and still struggled supremely in SL. I think a solid junior base is what's most important and Toulouse have that unlike the Crusaders who are now only starting to get their.

The game needs Toulouse in SL 2012 IMO and I for one would be extremely dissapointed to have them miss out because of an onfield performance rule which TBH is going to count for very little after promotion.

I agree with you. It wouldn't be that hard for Toulouse to win the National Rail Cup either, all the teams seem to be pretty close and they would only need to sneak the odd win. I am very much a Toulouse believer and hope that they ca make the cut. The benefits to French rugby league would be massive.

The team in the Super League in most trouble is Salford, IMO. They only got average crowds of 4,500 this year, last year the averaged 4,000 so being in the Super League does not seem to be much of a draw card. A heartland team can not afford to average so little. I know, they are there to spread the game into Manchester but they have been around for probably at least 100 years, so why have they not done that already?

Marv
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REVISED Co-Operative Championship Oct 9, 2009 18:50:37 GMT 10

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Post by Marv on Oct 9, 2009 18:50:37 GMT 10

Oct 8, 2009 21:56:29 GMT 10 jim said:

Oct 5, 2009 21:50:39 GMT 10 Marv said:

Not really recovered as such, lets just say its been a tough mornings work made sweet only by yesterdays memories!

Did you get to see or hear it Dan?

Well done to them, definatley a massive step up. Will be interesting to see the bid they put together for SL. FWIW I don't think they'll get one but one might be suprised.

I agree Jim, 2012 has to be Widnes and Toulouse really, for Barrow the ground will be a huge sticking point, also we have a lot of good young lads playing in the area or signed on for SL academys, but I went to watch the new Barrow U18s side play, my youngest brother is playing for them, they went down there with 11 lads, lost two to injury and got beat 102-0, they havent managed to rasie a full team all year, this does not suggest Barrow is teeming with kids ready to play the game at a higher level, lots has been made about "our local lads doing well, but in that final team there was 4 locals.

I'm over the moon we won the league and even happier we havent won promotion, we would be a laguing stock in SL and would basically be forced into recruting a team of out of town players and overseas reserve graders.

Marv
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REVISED Co-Operative Championship Oct 9, 2009 19:01:08 GMT 10

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Post by Marv on Oct 9, 2009 19:01:08 GMT 10

If Toulouse weren't allowed the right to bid it would be disasterous IMO.

I will be interested to see if the RFL actually keep to their word about Toulouse having to win something to gain the right to bid. I think it's plainly obvious that they want them in SL in 2012 and I hope they can imoprove and do it legitimatly. I think Wakey or Cas are as good as gone and it may expand to 15 teams. That would allowed Widnes and Toulouse to gain entry.

Wakey have done pretty well with their younger lads coming through, still too many average overseas players though, I think Cas have done a superb job this year after their no relegation year, Celtic should take heart.

I have one problem regarding Toulouse, it is that they only have one oppurtunity to gain bidding rights whilst others have 2. I don;t think they really had a choice but to join the Championship but they aren't allowed to compete in the Northern Rail cup which allows a bid oppurtunity. Also by doing this they were no longer allowed to participate in the Lord Derby which is ridiculous IMO. I think the RFL may have had plans to grant the winner of the Lord Derby the same rights as the Northern Rail cup but the Elite teams went up in arms about Toulouse being in it.

If they are as ready as most people seem to think they are or in a better position juniors and player roster wise than other Champ clubs then it shouldnt be an issue, if they dont play to expectations then they will not be in a position to apply, its pretty simple.

Does anyone else think that Toulouse are seriopusly disadvantaged in this situation or is it just me?

No mate, they should be happy they aint going to Blackpool next year FFS they finished below a team and that team went down!

I don't think on field performance in Championship really mean squat either, well sure if a teams getting flogged 50-0 every game then exceptions can be made but whoever gets promoted is going to keep their best players from their Championship and stock up on seasoned professionals. Look at the Crusaders, they went very well in NL1 then bought a truck load of Aussies and still struggled supremely in SL. I think a solid junior base is what's most important and Toulouse have that unlike the Crusaders who are now only starting to get their.

On feild performances have to count for something, its unfair for Toulouse to gain entry if they dont prove to other sides in similar positions Halifax, Barrow, Widnes, Featherstone that they are also deserve a chance.

jim
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REVISED Co-Operative Championship Oct 10, 2009 16:40:27 GMT 10

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Post by jim on Oct 10, 2009 16:40:27 GMT 10

Wakey have done pretty well with their younger lads coming through, still too many average overseas players though, I think Cas have done a superb job this year after their no relegation year, Celtic should take heart.

Agrre with that mostly, I thinK Wakey are most at risk along with Salford because their proposed stadiums are still very much just that and they both play in front of poor crowds. I can't see Celtic being dropped. Credit to them though they seem to be producing youngsters, I like the looks of Owen and Westerman for Cas and Ratchford and Myler for Salford in particular. Wakey seem to be getting there too with promotion of about 5 academy players to the first squad next year, I know one of them personally and hope he does really well.

If they are as ready as most people seem to think they are or in a better position juniors and player roster wise than other Champ clubs then it shouldnt be an issue, if they dont play to expectations then they will not be in a position to apply, its pretty simple.

Did the RFL seriously have expectations of them achieving a GF in two short years?They have had to step up in level at hast and were probably unable to assemble their desired squad, they also have to travel a good deal more than any other club every 2nd week which could take it's toll over the season.

No mate, they should be happy they aint going to Blackpool next year FFS they finished below a team and that team went down!

Still they are the only club that only has one way of getting a bid spot, I don't see how that can't be deemed even a bit unfair. Either let them participate in the Northern Rail Cup or let them compete in the Lord Derby and give the winner of that the same rights as the NRC winner.

On feild performances have to count for something, its unfair for Toulouse to gain entry if they dont prove to other sides in similar positions Halifax, Barrow, Widnes, Featherstone that they are also deserve a chance.

I agree but it's not overly important that a team must dominate the Championship before they can step up. I think Toulouse's best players are as good as any other teams best but they seem to have a fair few who struggle stepping up in level. Atleast that's the impression I get. In all reality though once a SL license is achieved the best players will be kept and lesser ones cut or relegated to reserves and replaces with seasoned professionals, same as any other club would/will do. I think Toulouse would handle their first year in SL just as well as any other team in Championship regardless of where they finish next season.

Of their current/upcoming players I think only these would make the cut the rest of the side would have to be filled with pro signings

1.
2. Duport
3. Planas
4.
5.
6. Villegas
7.
8.
9.
10. Griffi
11. Maria
12.
13. Anselme (If he's still playing)

Add to that any ones that join the club or progress through the ranks before 2012 and a few that would occupy squad spots and they already have a fairly solid spine of French players.

Would not suprise me at all to see them look at some more of Elite's outstanding players and some of the Catalans players who aren't regular starters.

Marv
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REVISED Co-Operative Championship Oct 23, 2009 19:01:47 GMT 10

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Post by Marv on Oct 23, 2009 19:01:47 GMT 10

Did the RFL seriously have expectations of them achieving a GF in two short years?They have had to step up in level at hast and were probably unable to assemble their desired squad, they also have to travel a good deal more than any other club every 2nd week which could take it's toll over the season.

I see what your saying but take the veiwpoint of a fan of another Championship club into mind, I am the fan of another championship club and if we won the league next year and were then over looked for Toulouse, you could understand why people might get a bit annoyed. FWIW I think they will ignore the rule if they dont make it, but they shouldnt.

Still they are the only club that only has one way of getting a bid spot, I don't see how that can't be deemed even a bit unfair. Either let them participate in the Northern Rail Cup or let them compete in the Lord Derby and give the winner of that the same rights as the NRC winner.

But they didnt have to enter the championship, as I said in the last reply, take the expansion hat off and have a look at it through the eyes of a Halifax or Barrow fan, or a Leigh fan even. You would struggle to find one of those who feel that, with exemption from relegation and an expanded quota, toulouse have been hard done by.

I have a foot in both camps and TBH would welcome TO into SL over Barrow, as I am not the small town kind of fan, i want to see growth, but we shouldnt cold shoulder every club inside the M62 corridor at the expense of that growth.

I agree but it's not overly important that a team must dominate the Championship before they can step up. I think Toulouse's best players are as good as any other teams best but they seem to have a fair few who struggle stepping up in level. Atleast that's the impression I get. In all reality though once a SL license is achieved the best players will be kept and lesser ones cut or relegated to reserves and replaces with seasoned professionals, same as any other club would/will do. I think Toulouse would handle their first year in SL just as well as any other team in Championship regardless of where they finish next season.

Of their current/upcoming players I think only these would make the cut the rest of the side would have to be filled with pro signings

1.
2. Duport
3. Planas
4.
5.
6. Villegas
7.
8.
9.
10. Griffi
11. Maria
12.
13. Anselme (If he's still playing)

Add to that any ones that join the club or progress through the ranks before 2012 and a few that would occupy squad spots and they already have a fairly solid spine of French players.

Would not suprise me at all to see them look at some more of Elite's outstanding players and some of the Catalans players who aren't regular starters.

I dont see how you can say the French guys in that side would form a solid spine to any team, Duport, Villegas and Griffi couldnt make the dragons squad and Anselme couldnt get a run at leeds, Planans failed at Wakefeild years ago, Maria is a young kid.

I think naming so few names shows us that this side is nowhere near SL on the field and that they would have to bring in a number of imports, you know my stance on this too, we already have one French team with too many imports, lets reduce the numbers in that one before we add another.

jim
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REVISED Co-Operative Championship Oct 25, 2009 10:59:40 GMT 10

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Post by jim on Oct 25, 2009 10:59:40 GMT 10

Oct 23, 2009 19:01:47 GMT 10 Marv said:

Did the RFL seriously have expectations of them achieving a GF in two short years?They have had to step up in level at hast and were probably unable to assemble their desired squad, they also have to travel a good deal more than any other club every 2nd week which could take it's toll over the season.

I see what your saying but take the veiwpoint of a fan of another Championship club into mind, I am the fan of another championship club and if we won the league next year and were then over looked for Toulouse, you could understand why people might get a bit annoyed. FWIW I think they will ignore the rule if they dont make it, but they shouldnt.

But they didnt have to enter the championship, as I said in the last reply, take the expansion hat off and have a look at it through the eyes of a Halifax or Barrow fan, or a Leigh fan even. You would struggle to find one of those who feel that, with exemption from relegation and an expanded quota, toulouse have been hard done by.

I have a foot in both camps and TBH would welcome TO into SL over Barrow, as I am not the small town kind of fan, i want to see growth, but we shouldnt cold shoulder every club inside the M62 corridor at the expense of that growth.

I agree with most of that, I just don't think that peformance should be as big of a requirement as it is. Every club has good players and the one that gets the nod will keep those and sign pros to make the team, all the average performers will either be playing elsewhere or reserves.

I don't really think Toulouse had an option but to join, I just think the whole thing was a bit last minute TBH. By inviting the French to field a club it seems to me they were pretty much saying any team wanting to bid must play in the Championship.

So what does this mean for 2012 and beyond applications? are any clubs from Elite or elsewhere (unlikely) allowed to bid or do they first have to play in the Championship. Hypotheticals, Stade Francais get involved in a Paris team and want to bid for SL, an Aude merger wishes to make a bid, Lyon or Montpelliar advance to Elite on and make a business plan for Sl application before 20??, Lokomotiv Moscow open their eyes to the outside world and try and reach for higher levels (unlikely). Would all these teams have to apply for Championship before they could apply for SL?

Oct 23, 2009 19:01:47 GMT 10 Marv said:

I dont see how you can say the French guys in that side would form a solid spine to any team, Duport, Villegas and Griffi couldnt make the dragons squad and Anselme couldnt get a run at leeds, Planans failed at Wakefeild years ago, Maria is a young kid.

I think naming so few names shows us that this side is nowhere near SL on the field and that they would have to bring in a number of imports, you know my stance on this too, we already have one French team with too many imports, lets reduce the numbers in that one before we add another.

Ok you haven't understood what I meant there, probably my bad wording. I simply meant that those players have what it takes to hold down those positions in SL, simply saying if/when they get there if those players are still there they would be playing those positions IMO. No doubt there'd be more in the side that would be capable of back-up, bench and squad places, add to that any juniors that come through or any players they sign from Elite or Catalans and I don't think their side would be packed with Imports any moreso than Widnes, Barrow, Fax, Sheffield or even Wakefield.

Catalans have far too many Imports and apart from Mogg, Mcguire and Greenshield none of them add all that much to the side, Bell is ordinary, Ryles is leaving and will need to be replaced by another front rower (hopefully French), Perry easily replaced by Barthau for a squad spot, Croker easily covered for, Carlaw is about par with 6 other seconf rowers they have, Bird will be lucky to avoid jail I think, he would be handy if they could hold onto him though.

Dallas Johnson is heavily rumoured to be signing, whilst he's a great player Catalans already have about 7 backrowers! If he does sign it will be farewell for Touxagas and Mounis IMO. I rate Mounis very highly but it doesn't appear the club does first signing Bird and now Johnson. I wouldn't be too suprised if he looks to get out and all that I hope is that he signs for another Professional club because a player of his calibre belongs in SL or NRL, would be a shame to see him go back to part time or a full time contract at Toulouse playing 2nd division. The best move for Touxagas would be Toulouse unless he can pick up a SL contract elsewhere.

Marv
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REVISED Co-Operative Championship Oct 26, 2009 20:58:16 GMT 10

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Post by Marv on Oct 26, 2009 20:58:16 GMT 10

I agree with most of that, I just don't think that peformance should be as big of a requirement as it is. Every club has good players and the one that gets the nod will keep those and sign pros to make the team, all the average performers will either be playing elsewhere or reserves.

So what does this mean for 2012 and beyond applications? are any clubs from Elite or elsewhere (unlikely) allowed to bid or do they first have to play in the Championship. Hypotheticals, Stade Francais get involved in a Paris team and want to bid for SL, an Aude merger wishes to make a bid, Lyon or Montpelliar advance to Elite on and make a business plan for Sl application before 20??, Lokomotiv Moscow open their eyes to the outside world and try and reach for higher levels (unlikely). Would all these teams have to apply for Championship before they could apply for SL?

I honestly dont know, On one hand you would say yes, as it gives you some idea to the viability to the project in question, and in many ways gives the impression to other championship clubs that they are not out of the picture.

but on the other you might say no as it could put immense financial strain on either the clubs, if they pay, or the RFL if they pay and it doesnt work out.

Ok you haven't understood what I meant there, probably my bad wording. I simply meant that those players have what it takes to hold down those positions in SL, simply saying if/when they get there if those players are still there they would be playing those positions IMO. No doubt there'd be more in the side that would be capable of back-up, bench and squad places, add to that any juniors that come through or any players they sign from Elite or Catalans and I don't think their side would be packed with Imports any moreso than Widnes, Barrow, Fax, Sheffield or even Wakefield.

I dont know mate, I dont feel that those players would be capable of holding a spot down as most of those names have already dropped out of SL at one point or another. You look at Toulouse and they dont really have anyone who would say could do a job in SL.

Catalans have far too many Imports and apart from Mogg, Mcguire and Greenshield none of them add all that much to the side, Bell is ordinary, Ryles is leaving and will need to be replaced by another front rower (hopefully French), Perry easily replaced by Barthau for a squad spot, Croker easily covered for, Carlaw is about par with 6 other seconf rowers they have, Bird will be lucky to avoid jail I think, he would be handy if they could hold onto him though.

Dallas Johnson is heavily rumoured to be signing, whilst he's a great player Catalans already have about 7 backrowers! If he does sign it will be farewell for Touxagas and Mounis IMO. I rate Mounis very highly but it doesn't appear the club does first signing Bird and now Johnson. I wouldn't be too suprised if he looks to get out and all that I hope is that he signs for another Professional club because a player of his calibre belongs in SL or NRL, would be a shame to see him go back to part time or a full time contract at Toulouse playing 2nd division. The best move for Touxagas would be Toulouse unless he can pick up a SL contract elsewhere.

I agree mate, I really think the club needs a genuine centre before anything else, as good as Johnson is we need to look and say there are more than enough quality back rowers in France.

Agree totally about Greg Mounis, in many ways he is comaprable to the kind of player Johnson is, atheletic, hard, top tackler. It would be a crying shame if Mounis was forced out because of Imports in positions they are not needed in

IMO mate Touxagas belongs in the 2nd div, I dont think he is a good player but would do a good job in the champ, he gives away too many cheap shots is too slow.

jim
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REVISED Co-Operative Championship Oct 27, 2009 23:25:20 GMT 10

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Post by jim on Oct 27, 2009 23:25:20 GMT 10

Oct 26, 2009 20:58:16 GMT 10 Marv said:

I agree with most of that, I just don't think that peformance should be as big of a requirement as it is. Every club has good players and the one that gets the nod will keep those and sign pros to make the team, all the average performers will either be playing elsewhere or reserves.

So what does this mean for 2012 and beyond applications? are any clubs from Elite or elsewhere (unlikely) allowed to bid or do they first have to play in the Championship. Hypotheticals, Stade Francais get involved in a Paris team and want to bid for SL, an Aude merger wishes to make a bid, Lyon or Montpelliar advance to Elite on and make a business plan for Sl application before 20??, Lokomotiv Moscow open their eyes to the outside world and try and reach for higher levels (unlikely). Would all these teams have to apply for Championship before they could apply for SL?

I honestly dont know, On one hand you would say yes, as it gives you some idea to the viability to the project in question, and in many ways gives the impression to other championship clubs that they are not out of the picture.

but on the other you might say no as it could put immense financial strain on either the clubs, if they pay, or the RFL if they pay and it doesnt work out.

For clubs furthewr away than France like Russia it wouldn't be finacially viable at a semi-pro level but professional clubs could manage it. Having Lokomotiv for example would cost semi-pro clubs alot of money.

What if the club doesn't want to play in Championship, If Stade Francias run a team and want to bid for SL but want to play in the French Leagues before then?

Of course these are atleast 5 years off being any sort of possibility but it would be nice to know for sure if teams from outside the Championship can bid.

Off topic a bit but Lezignan are looking to bid for Championship as of next year! I don't like the idea.

Oct 26, 2009 20:58:16 GMT 10 Marv said:

I dont know mate, I dont feel that those players would be capable of holding a spot down as most of those names have already dropped out of SL at one point or another. You look at Toulouse and they dont really have anyone who would say could do a job in SL.

From what I've seen all those players could handle it, but that just my opinion. Not saying they would be stars, just capable, more capable then others that get a run in SL! Villegas has great potential, same with Maria, Planas is a decent back from what I've seen, Duport is still young and has played alot of SL already.

I've no doubt there would be atleast a few more in Elite that would be capable of SL.

If Toulouse made it in 2012 I think they would field a squad of about 24 with about 8 non-french players, that wouldn't necessary mean 8 Australian's because I think they will target Englishmen aswell. So thats 16 French players they need to have in the squad, I would say they already have about 8 of those in line, plus juniors they have high hopes for. So maybe they'll need to sign about 5 more maybe? Should be easy enough IMO, it won't be the greatest squad and would probably finish bottom 4 to start but should be competitive and improve in time.

One thing they should be looking at doing is grooming French players into key positions, Villegas at 5/8 is the only obvious one so far. Bromley is on his way I believe so they'll need to look for a Fullback. Halfback, Hooker should also be priority.

Oct 26, 2009 20:58:16 GMT 10 Marv said: