Samoa

[Marv]

Oct 26, 2009 22:40:04 GMT 10 Druzik said:

Oct 26, 2009 21:51:57 GMT 10 Marv said:

Your deat set right Jim, I was gonna go to England V France, but I knew the result would go in Englands favour, I knew the games agaianst Aus and NZ would be better test spectacles for the elite international competition. When my finances said I could go to one or two of the three games, I knew which one I was missing out on.

BUt there were 11k that thought the game was worthy of their money... just as there will be people that think an Australia v Cook Islands match is worth their money.

exactly I bet that attendance will be less than half of what the other two pull, meaning its the game people wanted to see least of all

[Druzik]

Oct 27, 2009 1:27:34 GMT 10 Marv said:

Oct 26, 2009 22:40:04 GMT 10 Druzik said:

BUt there were 11k that thought the game was worthy of their money... just as there will be people that think an Australia v Cook Islands match is worth their money.

exactly I bet that attendance will be less than half of what the other two pull, meaning its the game people wanted to see least of all

But there is still 11k that turned out to see it... for some it was a match still worth going out to see... as it will be if the Cook Islanders... there will be those that will want to go and see the Cook Islanders a dn a;so just to see Australia play in general. The Novelty factor may play a large role as well for the Aussies.

C'mon you think PNG will have any better chance of promoting themselves than the Cooks or anyone else?

Either we make sure that we have the best team go through to these tournaments and we promote them as best we can or we dont bother stick with the 4/5 usual suspects and be done with it.

[supersteve]

I personally couldnt care less how big or small the country is. To me, that is irrelevant. If they do the hard yards and qualify then they deserve to be in. Otherwise, as Druzik has said, why bother having the PN?.

OK Cook Islands, you win the PN, but hey your not really what we're after in a team to go into the 4N, so PNG, here you go.

Talk about a farce.

Cook Islands, Tonga, Samoa, Fiiji and PNG are not major drawcards, were splitting hairs saying one is going to draw more than the other.

[sportsmad]

marketing isnt the main factor here. most of the people that showed up for this game would be there to see their sporting stars australia play in a test.

the main factor here is the developemt of a 4th genuine competitor on the world stage. france and PNG rely 90% on clubs in their own countries. they should be rewarded for this. theres hardly any heritage players at all in this these sides. they arent eligable for any other country besides the ones they play for. this is the genuine teams we need to prosper. by the 4th spot going to a "heritage team" which unfortunately is what the cook islands are we're holding "sleeping giants" france back yet another year and wasting a great opportunty to allow PNG to prosper. would i scrap the promotion system and grant the 4th spot to PNG? no , not yet. im just explaining why i hope PNG win on the weekend.

[Druzik]

Oct 27, 2009 17:21:29 GMT 10 sportsmad said:

marketing isnt the main factor here. most of the people that showed up for this game would be there to see their sporting stars australia play in a test.

the main factor here is the developemt of a 4th genuine competitor on the world stage. france and PNG rely 90% on clubs in their own countries. they should be rewarded for this. theres hardly any heritage players at all in this these sides. they arent eligable for any other country besides the ones they play for. this is the genuine teams we need to prosper. by the 4th spot going to a "heritage team" which unfortunately is what the cook islands are we're holding "sleeping giants" france back yet another year and wasting a great opportunty to allow PNG to prosper. would i scrap the promotion system and grant the 4th spot to PNG? no , not yet. im just explaining why i hope PNG win on the weekend.

This is where I think the 4N is missing them point with IRL - actually we have completely missed the boat with it. I think back in November 2007 when Richard Lewis announced his 10 year plan he jumped the gun a bit. He should have held off till after the world cup and then come up with a proper 4 year cycle.

Have regional tournmanents where teams can compete against the best from that region and then win through promotion to cros-regional tounaments like the 4N an world cup.

What we have at the moment is still a very ad-hoc international schedule... one that really does nothing to further the cause of the sport internationally.

Look France and PNG may be the "sleeping giants" with their locally grown players, but if they dont perform then who are we to deny other teams from stepping up... plus from memory quite a few of the Cook Island guys are born and bread cook Islanders.

In the end heritage players or not... its the best teams that should get promoted and the other teams need to step up to the plate and comptete, otherwise if we just keep favouring the few we will get no where and all the others will get discourage and just go away, and we will be back at square one.

[Druzik]

Oct 27, 2009 17:21:29 GMT 10 sportsmad said:

marketing isnt the main factor here. most of the people that showed up for this game would be there to see their sporting stars australia play in a test.

the main factor here is the developemt of a 4th genuine competitor on the world stage. france and PNG rely 90% on clubs in their own countries. they should be rewarded for this. theres hardly any heritage players at all in this these sides. they arent eligable for any other country besides the ones they play for. this is the genuine teams we need to prosper. by the 4th spot going to a "heritage team" which unfortunately is what the cook islands are we're holding "sleeping giants" france back yet another year and wasting a great opportunty to allow PNG to prosper. would i scrap the promotion system and grant the 4th spot to PNG? no , not yet. im just explaining why i hope PNG win on the weekend.

Actually see this statement has bothered me a bit sportsmad... you are looking at the very short term here... what we need to be doing is not at the development of a genuine 4th competitor, what we need to be looking at is the development of genuine, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th 9th and 10th competitors.... once you have that that's when you start to get really taken serious.

The cook Islands are showing us a glimpse that there is another Pacific nation out there that can compete, Fiji and PNG have shown that as well, as have Ireland and Scotland in Europe. We need to start to help all of them get better, that where these tournmants play their part and the promotion is that incentive for nations to do well.

taking all of them into accout, aside from England, Australia, France, NZ, we have PNG, Wales, Ireland, Cook Is, Fiji, Tonga, USA, SA... right there you have 10 teams that we should be trying to push and get ahead at least...

[sportsmad]

a big thing for me is to reward teams that use mostly domestic players. rugby league is unique as we have only two profesional competitions in the world so even if a player is the absolute star of his domestic league in beruit or sebia or wherever, realistically hes up to the standard of the jim beam cup at best. this is obviously why teams pick almost entirely heritage players. "PNG" and "France" are truly "PNG" and "France", not Australian Tonga or Samoan Australia. they pick mostly players from their domestic competitions thus strengthining their respective competitions. they should be rewarded for this. cook islands , tonga or whoever will continue to pick mostly, if not all heritage players (i cant blame them) and the standard of their domestic cups wont rise.

obviously id like to see more than 5 teams that can regularly compete with the big three but i think we need to turn that "big three" into the"big five" and go from there. with that will come increased interest in the "big clashes" and most importantly increased profits and resources so we can go to the rest of the rugby league playing countries and develope them with significant resources.

if the pacific cup and european nations are staged every year then the standard and profile of these comps will rise naturally.

am i saying i want to see a "five nations" tournament? its worth a try and tbh i wouldnt be against it. however , during this world cup cycle its too late to change the plan so i would stick with the relegation system currently in place.

[Druzik]

Oct 28, 2009 14:15:35 GMT 10 sportsmad said:

a big thing for me is to reward teams that use mostly domestic players. rugby league is unique as we have only two profesional competitions in the world so even if a player is the absolute star of his domestic league in beruit or sebia or wherever, realistically hes up to the standard of the jim beam cup at best. this is obviously why teams pick almost entirely heritage players. "PNG" and "France" are truly "PNG" and "France", not Australian Tonga or Samoan Australia. they pick mostly players from their domestic competitions thus strengthining their respective competitions. they should be rewarded for this. cook islands , tonga or whoever will continue to pick mostly, if not all heritage players (i cant blame them) and the standard of their domestic cups wont rise.

obviously id like to see more than 5 teams that can regularly compete with the big three but i think we need to turn that "big three" into the"big five" and go from there. with that will come increased interest in the "big clashes" and most importantly increased profits and resources so we can go to the rest of the rugby league playing countries and develope them with significant resources.

if the pacific cup and european nations are staged every year then the standard and profile of these comps will rise naturally.

am i saying i want to see a "five nations" tournament? its worth a try and tbh i wouldnt be against it. however , during this world cup cycle its too late to change the plan so i would stick with the relegation system currently in place.

There is merit in much of that... but again I am still weary as why we should only try to restrict ourselved to PNG and France... those nations are showing that they are improvong on their own.

The other issue is that if you have too many annual tournaments then peopl may get a bit bored with the, thats why I think 4 year cycles should be done.

But we are stuck with what we have till aftrer 2013 and that is that. There are no real visionaries in international RL at the moment.

[jim]

Oct 27, 2009 8:02:11 GMT 10 supersteve said:

I personally couldnt care less how big or small the country is. To me, that is irrelevant. If they do the hard yards and qualify then they deserve to be in. Otherwise, as Druzik has said, why bother having the PN?.

OK Cook Islands, you win the PN, but hey your not really what we're after in a team to go into the 4N, so PNG, here you go.

Talk about a farce.

Cook Islands, Tonga, Samoa, Fiiji and PNG are not major drawcards, were splitting hairs saying one is going to draw more than the other.

I don't think anybody is suggesting they shouldn't get their spot, just saying I think it will be a much better result for the game as a whole to have PNG there instead of the Cooks. PNG will add alot more the game of RL than the Cook Islands will, harsh but true.

If the Cooks gain their spot good luck to them but I just don't think anybody but a Pacific Islander or an avid International RL fan would take a country of 20,000 people with mostly heritage players in our second biggest internation tournament very seriously.

[Druzik]

Oct 29, 2009 21:06:45 GMT 10 jim said:

Oct 27, 2009 8:02:11 GMT 10 supersteve said:

I personally couldnt care less how big or small the country is. To me, that is irrelevant. If they do the hard yards and qualify then they deserve to be in. Otherwise, as Druzik has said, why bother having the PN?.

OK Cook Islands, you win the PN, but hey your not really what we're after in a team to go into the 4N, so PNG, here you go.

Talk about a farce.

Cook Islands, Tonga, Samoa, Fiiji and PNG are not major drawcards, were splitting hairs saying one is going to draw more than the other.

I don't think anybody is suggesting they shouldn't get their spot, just saying I think it will be a much better result for the game as a whole to have PNG there instead of the Cooks. PNG will add alot more the game of RL than the Cook Islands will, harsh but true.

If the Cooks gain their spot good luck to them but I just don't think anybody but a Pacific Islander or an avid International RL fan would take a country of 20,000 people with mostly heritage players in our second biggest internation tournament very seriously.

See jim that is the kind of comment that frustrates me.

Instead of looking at the positives and trying to push the good part of the Cools being the ones to go through, looking at the positives a nation like that would get etc... the negatives are being looked at because in the end it doesnt benefit and of the big three nations.

See in the end this whole thing should not be about any one nation, its about the sport collectively and how best can it be supported and used to support the sommunities that play and love the sport. A nation like the Cook Islands will get sooo much out of it, the exposure.

Us Australians love the underdog, which is precisely what the cooks are, plus the POtential NRL talent ther and the NYC... that shoudl be a big point for the NRL loving jurnos in this country to even latch on to.

Why is it that in RL we always look at the glas 1/2 enmpty instead of 1/2 full?

[beez]

I read through this whole thread just now & I'll thought I'd add my thoughts. Personally I'd like to see the Cooks win the Pacific Cup & join the 4Nations next year. Why? I think it would be a massive wake up call for rugby league in all the Pacific nations.

If PNG go through then it would be great for them & I'm sure they'd show some improvement but it would pretty much be sticking with the status quo & it would only benefit PNG.

But if the Cooks were to make we'd have players & officials from Fiji, Samoa, & Tonga looking at it thinking that could so easily be them & there are opportunities to play at the highest level while still representing our homeland. The level of competition would go up throughout the Pacific Islands. The Pacific nations would all be on the same playing field, at the moment it clearly favours PNG with their inclusion in the "super group" at the world cup & home ground advantage for the current Pacific Cup.

& who really cares about scores & crowds for three games. If PNG make it instead of the Cooks then we might see a few extra thousand at games & some 30+ scorelines instead of 60+ but would that make much difference overall, most of the attention will centre on Australia & NZ anyway.

I don't think we should limit international league to the "big 3" & France & PNG, & the 4Nations should not be the vehicle used to bring these two up to speed anyway, it's what we do around the 4Nations that counts. Have England play France, NZ v Tonga, & Australia v the loser of PNG/CI in warmups for next years 4Nations & they'll all be better for it.

Either way I'll be happy to see either PNG or the Cook Islands in the 4Nations next year, may the best team win!

[Seluman]

Oct 30, 2009 9:12:04 GMT 10 beez said:

I read through this whole thread just now & I'll thought I'd add my thoughts. Personally I'd like to see the Cooks win the Pacific Cup & join the 4Nations next year. Why? I think it would be a massive wake up call for rugby league in all the Pacific nations.

If PNG go through then it would be great for them & I'm sure they'd show some improvement but it would pretty much be sticking with the status quo & it would only benefit PNG.

But if the Cooks were to make we'd have players & officials from Fiji, Samoa, & Tonga looking at it thinking that could so easily be them & there are opportunities to play at the highest level while still representing our homeland. The level of competition would go up throughout the Pacific Islands. The Pacific nations would all be on the same playing field, at the moment it clearly favours PNG with their inclusion in the "super group" at the world cup & home ground advantage for the current Pacific Cup.

& who really cares about scores & crowds for three games. If PNG make it instead of the Cooks then we might see a few extra thousand at games & some 30+ scorelines instead of 60+ but would that make much difference overall, most of the attention will centre on Australia & NZ anyway.

I don't think we should limit international league to the "big 3" & France & PNG, & the 4Nations should not be the vehicle used to bring these two up to speed anyway, it's what we do around the 4Nations that counts. Have England play France, NZ v Tonga, & Australia v the loser of PNG/CI in warmups for next years 4Nations & they'll all be better for it.

Either way I'll be happy to see either PNG or the Cook Islands in the 4Nations next year, may the best team win!

At the end of the day lads, may the best team win!

I've read reports about how bad it would be if the Cooks won the PC!? DAYUM!

If the cooks beat PNG, they have deserved it on real merit... Samoa underestimated them & rested a few players, Fiji couldn't beat em... so if PNG can't beat, who can deny them that 'earnt' right?

Hopefully these PC results will be a real wake up call for the for the Mate Ma'a Tonga team.

MGT & players must get a wake up call, plan and organise things ahead of time, arrange for players to be released from their respective clubs etc so they can actually put out the 'best' Tongan squad possible...

May the best team win!

[England 3 Lions]

I want PNG to win because I have a soft spot for them and believe they're the "next big thing" in Test rugby league, but I'll be happy if the Cook Islands qualify for the Four Nations via a defeat of the Kumals. The Cook Islands' journsey so far has added a lot of buzz and emotion to the Pacific Nations Cup.

The main advantage I see behind the promotion/relegation system is it adds more spice to each Four Nations tournament. The only problem I have with the current system is it doesn't allow the winner of the Pacific Nations to play the winner of the European Cup to decide who qualifies for the Four Nations. If it did then it would make every European Cup and Pacific Nations Cup tournament more meaingful.

[Marv]

Thankfully, the correct result has been acheived.

[Marv]

Oct 27, 2009 20:26:35 GMT 10 Druzik said:

Oct 27, 2009 17:21:29 GMT 10 sportsmad said:

marketing isnt the main factor here. most of the people that showed up for this game would be there to see their sporting stars australia play in a test.

the main factor here is the developemt of a 4th genuine competitor on the world stage. france and PNG rely 90% on clubs in their own countries. they should be rewarded for this. theres hardly any heritage players at all in this these sides. they arent eligable for any other country besides the ones they play for. this is the genuine teams we need to prosper. by the 4th spot going to a "heritage team" which unfortunately is what the cook islands are we're holding "sleeping giants" france back yet another year and wasting a great opportunty to allow PNG to prosper. would i scrap the promotion system and grant the 4th spot to PNG? no , not yet. im just explaining why i hope PNG win on the weekend.

Actually see this statement has bothered me a bit sportsmad... you are looking at the very short term here... what we need to be doing is not at the development of a genuine 4th competitor, what we need to be looking at is the development of genuine, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th 9th and 10th competitors.... once you have that that's when you start to get really taken serious.

The cook Islands are showing us a glimpse that there is another Pacific nation out there that can compete, Fiji and PNG have shown that as well, as have Ireland and Scotland in Europe. We need to start to help all of them get better, that where these tournmants play their part and the promotion is that incentive for nations to do well.

taking all of them into accout, aside from England, Australia, France, NZ, we have PNG, Wales, Ireland, Cook Is, Fiji, Tonga, USA, SA... right there you have 10 teams that we should be trying to push and get ahead at least...

Dan, your running and we can barely walk. We need a fourth competetive team first, then we can look at a fifth and sixth.