jim
Marquee Player
Posts: 1,150
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Post by jim on Sept 25, 2008 21:20:04 GMT 10
Ukrain would hammer the Czechs and Latvia and Estonia, but you never know. Look there is talk that they are going to try and get a game or two for the Ukies this year still against oponents to guage where they are at properly. They played a GB university academy team two months ago and almost beat them. I know the manager of that team, Gerard Keenan and he said the Ukraninas with a bit more match pracitce will be a ferocious and scary opponent for any team. Yeh I agree but I'm not so sure Latvia are a better side than the Czechs, I don't like the idea of a straight P&R in tiers like this, teams should have to prove they're ready to go up the level, if they are not a better team than the worst in the tier above them they shouldn't be there, they should have to prove they are ready for the move up. The emergence of the Ukies could be a good rivalry for Russia, maybe they could organise to have a yearly game against them like Germany V Czechs. |
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Post by Druzik on Sept 25, 2008 21:26:30 GMT 10
Look I see your point Jim and am not against something like that in theory, the problem is that with many of these teams the travel in terms of cost and time is difficult and expensive and also to get time off work not that easy. So having an extra match particularly at short notice would be difficult. CXountries like Ukraine still have to get visas which as expensive and hard to get, look at this year e.g. travel say from Russia to italy is not that easy. Ask Spider what logistics had to go into getting the team set up to go to Lebanon... I am sure it's not that simple as booking over the internet for someone like me.
The other possible option would be that some of these comps will expand into maybe a 4 nation set up. But that also brings in the problems with the above paragraph.
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Post by Marv on Sept 25, 2008 23:41:26 GMT 10
But I think the encouraging thing with europe is three fold 1. There is a clearly established system of teams where they are ranked and which tier they play. 2. There is a yearly set of tournamnets that teams/players/fans can look forward too and the RLEF can build upon 3. Just the sheer number of teams involved now in Europen competitions is fantastic and they are keen to expand in to asia with teams in UAE, Saudi Arabia and if its to be believed India and Pakisatn Its all fantatstic to see, and not one of these teams is suggesting they would win the world cup in the next 20 years but over time we will see all these countries grow at a rate which benefits them. rather than bankrupting them. Which actualty leads me on to my next point........ I don't like the idea of a straight P&R in tiers like this, teams should have to prove they're ready to go up the level, if they are not a better team than the worst in the tier above them they shouldn't be there, they should have to prove they are ready for the move up. I have been thinkinga bout a P+R system myself in IRL and I have decided that It wouldnt work as well as we are thinking, its also hypocrytical, because we are almost in 100% agreement that P+R is not the best thing for the club game, so why should it be for the Internationals? Just as an example, if you said France as an example go into the 3 nations and were to finish bottom, therefore be relegated, it would be almost exactly the same as the club game, a yo-yo effect, with no time to consolidate. If you said France deserve to be there on merit and because of their development then leave them in there and slowly expand your top tier without relegation, as another example what if Serbia finish bottom of the Med cup and are relegated to the tier below, will they not just whack the other opponents and vice versa the promoted team get whacked by Russia and Lebanon? Maybe nations should be ranked due to certain critera such as size of professional player pool, size of somestic player pool, size of various age group pools, and juat as in SL, how that nation is performing on the field. |
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Post by Druzik on Sept 26, 2008 0:28:52 GMT 10
Marv that is very true and exactly a debate I have had with Kevin Rudd when I saw him in Tallin. One reason there have been no updtaes on the IRL rankings is because the system is dependent on how well teams are doing at the lower levels and not just the top tier games.
The IRB amd soccer ranking only look at the top national teams and have a complicated points structure in determining the value of the type of match played etc... and where a team sits, so its almost invariably that top teams will always play top teams because their games end up being more important. A Australia v SA game in the Tri nations is worth more in points than a Moldova v Ukraine game.
The IRL rankings from what I understand look at the number of U16,18 and 20 players as well as senior development teams like A and B and any full internationals played regardless of if they are in a tournament or where the oponents sit. It may seem a bit harder to calculate but I think eventually its a fairer way because its still rewarding teams for development.
So I think to start with some P and R is needed just to establish where teams are etc... but I think eventually we'll need to set teams up in tournaments according to where their ranings are... or maybe do the p+R over a 3 year period, like a SL franchise, so a teams that may stuff up one year still has the opportunity to make up for it over the next two.
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Post by Spider on Sept 26, 2008 6:42:26 GMT 10
Top tier European competitions should be played by full and associate RLEF members. Period. It was not someone's crazy idea to put all the others as observers or unranked. Sad true is that in these latter group of nations exist less clubs than national federations. It is not natural to form national federation first and than make the clubs. Only logical way is that two or even better three clubs join themselves in a federation on national level. That's why there are difficulties in all those nations who started to play as national teams to establish the proper national championships/conferences/leagues for 13-a-side teams. They are too busy with their international program and they are in chronical lack of people involved, so the development very often does not appear.
I don't underestimate these nation, but we heard here about 5-6 German teams and they always find some reasons why they can't play the national competition.
I read on leagueunlimited.com's forum about some kind of Maltese national competition with 5-6 teams of ringing names, but all they played was 9s with three teams full of Aussies versus one British military team.
In Italy, there is no trace of competition, but someone above put them in Euro Med Challenge 2009.
Greece, probably the biggest disappointment so far. They brought Australians twice in Greece to beat Serbia and 12 Scotland Students and also "formed" four team, but NEVER played national comp.
Latvia, that's one Rugby Union club willing to play RL.
Estonia, even less than previous.
Morocco, heard that they try to start there something similar as Lebanon did, but so far, pure French team.
Ukraine, great potential, they have few teams, one playing in Russian competition, but they don't have their own.
So, playing friendlies is one thing, but official competitions is completely different. I heard that on some RLEF meetings, new nations were willing to play with us, but if we don't face them the strongest team. I don't remember that we had the same requests when we were loosing 120-0 to France and 102-0 to Lebanon in 2003. Those are still I think highest margins in international rugby league in history. I think that people around the world don't realize (maybe some don't respect) the way that we went over to be where we are. Observers are just not the same with full and associate member. Let's stop kidding with that fact.
Friendlies anytime, but for official matches they have to earn the chance.
I'm sorry if someone is in snuff by this, but that's the way that Serbia think of the matter and it's fair that to be known.
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Post by Druzik on Sept 26, 2008 16:11:41 GMT 10
Fair comments spider... fair comments.
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Post by Marv on Sept 26, 2008 16:54:45 GMT 10
The IRB amd soccer ranking only look at the top national teams and have a complicated points structure in determining the value of the type of match played etc... and where a team sits, so its almost invariably that top teams will always play top teams because their games end up being more important. A Australia v SA game in the Tri nations is worth more in points than a Moldova v Ukraine game. In some ways that is fair though because two eilite nations playing eachother should get more points than a group of amaturs (no offence to those ameturs). The IRL rankings from what I understand look at the number of U16,18 and 20 players as well as senior development teams like A and B and any full internationals played regardless of if they are in a tournament or where the oponents sit. It may seem a bit harder to calculate but I think eventually its a fairer way because its still rewarding teams for development. True, and in many ways until after the WC, we dont need to know any rankings, the only anomaly in our rankings ATM is Tonga sitting in 4th despite the fact that everyone knows PNG and France are further on regards structure and domestic develpment than Tonga So I think to start with some P and R is needed just to establish where teams are etc... but I think eventually we'll need to set teams up in tournaments according to where their ranings are... or maybe do the p+R over a 3 year period, like a SL franchise, so a teams that may stuff up one year still has the opportunity to make up for it over the next two. I think maybe over a two/three comp period, assuming these kind of comps are gonna be yearly, for example if Serbia finish bottom of the med cup 3 comps straight then they should maybe be relegated, but it still undoes their hard work in bringing themselves closer to the other two nations in their comp. |
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Post by Marv on Sept 26, 2008 16:58:36 GMT 10
Top tier European competitions should be played by full and associate RLEF members. Period. It was not someone's crazy idea to put all the others as observers or unranked. Sad true is that in these latter group of nations exist less clubs than national federations. It is not natural to form national federation first and than make the clubs. Only logical way is that two or even better three clubs join themselves in a federation on national level. That's why there are difficulties in all those nations who started to play as national teams to establish the proper national championships/conferences/leagues for 13-a-side teams. They are too busy with their international program and they are in chronical lack of people involved, so the development very often does not appear. I don't underestimate these nation, but we heard here about 5-6 German teams and they always find some reasons why they can't play the national competition. I read on leagueunlimited.com's forum about some kind of Maltese national competition with 5-6 teams of ringing names, but all they played was 9s with three teams full of Aussies versus one British military team. In Italy, there is no trace of competition, but someone above put them in Euro Med Challenge 2009. Greece, probably the biggest disappointment so far. They brought Australians twice in Greece to beat Serbia and 12 Scotland Students and also "formed" four team, but NEVER played national comp. Latvia, that's one Rugby Union club willing to play RL. Estonia, even less than previous. Morocco, heard that they try to start there something similar as Lebanon did, but so far, pure French team. Ukraine, great potential, they have few teams, one playing in Russian competition, but they don't have their own. So, playing friendlies is one thing, but official competitions is completely different. I heard that on some RLEF meetings, new nations were willing to play with us, but if we don't face them the strongest team. I don't remember that we had the same requests when we were loosing 120-0 to France and 102-0 to Lebanon in 2003. Those are still I think highest margins in international rugby league in history. I think that people around the world don't realize (maybe some don't respect) the way that we went over to be where we are. Observers are just not the same with full and associate member. Let's stop kidding with that fact. Friendlies anytime, but for official matches they have to earn the chance. I'm sorry if someone is in snuff by this, but that's the way that Serbia think of the matter and it's fair that to be known. I think your being very fair Spider, as an example Serbia would probably get beat by Italy if Italy caled on their Aussies, but that would be unfair to Serbian development and the Serbian domestic palyers who are obviously improving and these kind of comps will help them, thats why i dont think that P+R would do serbia any favours |
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Post by Druzik on Sept 26, 2008 16:58:47 GMT 10
hhhhhhhh... its all very complicated isn't it.
I think no matter what you do there will always be critisisms and no one person will ever be happy with what out there.
Just look at whet the franchising has stirred up with Leigh and Widnes fans.
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Post by Marv on Sept 26, 2008 17:11:09 GMT 10
I think no matter what you do there will always be critisisms and no one person will ever be happy with what out there. Just look at whet the franchising has stirred up with Leigh and Widnes fans. well yeah but without wanting to get too far off topic, Widnes were robbed, thats not to say I dont support the entry of Celtic and I can see why they went with Salford, but when you put those 3 clubs on paper and then discount Widnes financial probs (probs for which they were penalised for at the beginning of the season) it looks silly that they were left out. Leigh I can understand, they were never going to attract the kind of support Widnes can, IMO |
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Post by Druzik on Sept 26, 2008 17:14:26 GMT 10
I wasn;t making any specific comments on widnes or leigh applications, just that there will always be unhappy people out there with what ever decisions you make.
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Post by Marv on Sept 26, 2008 17:19:18 GMT 10
I wasn;t making any specific comments on widnes or leigh applications, just that there will always be unhappy people out there with what ever decisions you make. Yeah, there certainly will. |
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Post by Ryan N on Sept 26, 2008 20:06:56 GMT 10
Europe is coming along so well. Perhaps expansions should not be a priority but consolidating the efforts in the countries already involved. Look at PNG in rugby league and PNG in rugby union. Big difference (although league is national sport). but we could try and do a similar thing with the European nations. make League first then Union second. If only we had've done this expansion when League was professional and Union amatuer. We would be miles ahead.
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